How Margaret Thatcher was boosted in 1979 by her TV 'debate' v James Callaghan
UK leaders first did battle on TV together in the 1970s
I have heard several times on the news recently that the first time UK leaders debated on TV was in 2010 - the clip of Gordon Brown, the then PM, saying “I agree with Nick” has been replayed endlessly. It may have been the first head-to-head - but the original TV battles were in the 1970s, when the leaders appeared together to answer audience questions. In the landmark election of 1979, Margaret Thatcher got a boost in the polls from having been seen to worst her male opponent James Callaghan in a Q and A format.
The audience for that show was brought from the north of England on a special train to a London theatre. My uncle David Kemp who was a producer on Granada’s World In Action put it together - and recalls how when Callaghan froze behind the scenes with stage fright, David put a hand on the small of his back and pushed him out onto the stage. He says that if you watch the footage you can see Callaghan jolt out - but I haven’t been able to track down a copy,
Below is an excerpt from my conversation with David.
Jackie: The 1979 leaders’ TV show is analysed by Bob Self in the book ‘Political Communications, the General Election of 1979’ ed by Robert Worcester, the founder of MORI, and he concludes that she got a boost from having won the ‘debate’. You produced that show. What do you remember about it?
David: For years, we had been working on the idea of the first TV election debate among the leaders. These had been happening in the US since the famous debates between John Kennedy and Richard Nixon in 1960. The first UK 'debate' had taken place in the previous election of 1974, when we convinced the three leaders to participate in a World In Action Special to answer questions from an invited audience. We had established a credible forum. Bolton East was a bellwether seat and with the help of Robert Worcester and MORI, we identified 500 people who were an accurate reflection of political views. We ran programmes every night in which these 500 ordinary people interrogated politicians on the issue of the day.
They would get a briefing document to read about the central issues on that evening’s topic - defence, education or whatever. They would come into the theatre a few hours before the show and a couple of experts would brief them. I think they even got fed there.
The politicians would arrive, one from each party. The Secretary of State for defence, the opposition spokesman for defence, and the Liberal. And an hour-long television programme would be done live, in which the audience could ask questions of thepoliticians. In 1974, these programmes had aired in the afternoon. But in 1979 they were moved to prime time. They aired at 9 pm every night and drew a huge audience.
We wanted to have a head-to-head TV debate in 1979. I was working on a dual approach - the first choice was to have a debate between the three main party leaders but the backup plan was to have them appear in sequence and answer questions from the Bolton 500, which was what actually happened.
I started with David Steel, who I had been at University with. For Steel, who was a persuasive speaker in third place, it was an attractive opportunity. Margaret also saw the event as a potential game-changer for her - she was confident of her ability to think on her feet. James Callaghan was the most reluctant - but I drew on my background as a Labour Party press officer and the carefully calibrated audience to persuade the Labour team to agree.
For the final show, the live debate, on April 30, three days before the election on May 3, instead of trying to take the leaders to Bolton, we decided to bring the 500 down to London, to a theatre that was at the back of the London School of Economics.
Granada arranged a train to take the 500 people with various friends and relatives, researchers and so on down to London from Piccadilly. The train had on the front of it ‘The Granada 500’.
I was behind the scenes as the leaders assembled. Thatcher was poised and confident, so was Steel. Callaghan however was pale and silent. I could see he was suffering from terrible stage fright.
Jackie: I have looked at the transcript. Thatcher came on first. The first question was - would she lose male votes through being a female leader of the Conservative Party. She made a comparison with Queen Elizabeth the First.
TRANSCRIPT
Q: Well, a lot of men that I've spoken to have said “I would vote Conservative if a man was the leader of the party” .
Thatcher: Oh, how very strange. Well I hope they'll still vote Conservative. You know, it's as well they didn't live in Elizabethan times, isn't it? [laughter]—the first Queen Elizabeth. After all, we did very well then, very well.
The second question was on how she would deal with union militants. After proposing to outlaw flying pickets and the closed shop, Thatcher made a conciliatory speech.
Thatcher: But above all, we have to remember this, there are 12 million members of trade unions. They're not sort of a set of people apart. I imagine there are many of them among the audience. They're just like the rest of us. They have the same ambitions for their families. They really would rather like to get on by their own efforts. They don't like paying too much tax. They are very keen on law and order. There aren't many who are militants, and between us, all of us, we have together to deal with those militants and that's why I want to help with a postal ballot or secret ballot, because I am determined that those few destroyers should not destroy the freedom which I was brought up to believe was the heritage of every British citizen.”
David: Gordon Burns introduced “the Prime Minister, James Callaghan.” It was live TV. In the wings, Callaghan stood stock still. He had frozen. Another second passed. To me, the pause seemed interminable. Eventually, I placed my hand in the small of Callaghan’s back and pushed him out onto the set. You can see Callaghan jolting out onto the stage.
A young nurse in the front row asked: “When are you going to give us nurses more money?” And Callaghan took her on, responding angrily. He was felt to have bullied and shouted her down. The performance was thought to have cost him the election.
Jackie: In “Political Communications”, Bob Self wrote:
“Mr Callaghan's image profile had improved considerably during the campaign. In this context, therefore, Mrs Thatcher's superior performance rating in the World in Action Special is even more surprising…the explanation must be largely attributed to the quality of Mrs Thatcher's performance and the contrast between her style and that adopted by Mr Callaghan…
“In contrast to Mrs Thatcher's friendly, relaxed manner, Callaghan arrived at the Greenwood Theatre in a state of considerable anxiety, and just before entering the studio he expressed doubts about participating in the programme at all…Mr Callaghan entered to the warmest welcome of the afternoon, and only two days before the MORI recall of the panel had given him a fourteen-point lead over Mrs Thatcher as the better potential Prime Minister.
“Replying to questions, however, Mr Callaghan appeared nervous and edgy; an impression substantiated by his tendency to reply before questioners had finished speaking. Moreover, he personalised the issues and occasionally made disparaging references to the Conservative leader, a strategy conspicuously avoided by both his rivals. Probably most important in alienating audience support, however, was his frequently aggressive attitude towards his questioners. To a supplementary question on pay from a nurse, for instance, the Prime Minister replied in a hectoring voice: What's wrong with that, love.?..It's no use shaking your head love, these are the facts!' The facts may have been incontrovertible but the manner in which they were expressed was disastrous for Mr Callaghan.”
The 1979 election was a landslide for the Tories - in England. In Scotland, it was a Labour landslide.