Excellent news regarding the ruling. My admiration of the women who brought this case despite all the slander, calmuny, threats of cancellation and worse, is boundless.
As I understand it, trans people are no longer able to use any facility which depends on sex or gender. Trans women have no right to use a Ladies, or be in a female hospital ward. Since trans men ALSO have no right to use the Gents or a male ward one assumes it applies to trans women, too, that they have no right to be in male spaces if it causes scandle. (The judgement explains the group might also choose to exclude trans men, if proportionate, for example, if “reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a male appearance”. ) One presumes that if a trans woman gives offence in a male ward (or if the hospital find protecting her expensive) she can be excluded from there too. Where is she supposed to go? Where are trans men supposed to go? I’m a cis bi sexual woman with trans friends. Today is DEVASTATING. This is not over.
That will absolutely work perfect as long as: every official and staff member dealing with the situation is sympathetic to the trans person, as long as the institution is not under pressure, as long as the correct instructions go from knowledgeable people to less skilled ones. The chances of this happening? When there is NO statutory pressure for it?
And then, what? How long until a trans gendered person decides not to seek, or to accept treatment because they can’t face the possible consequences in a care setting? Where are they supposed to pee? I mean, tomorrow? There’s no encouragement to create more gender neutral facilities. I know people harassed for using disabled facilities when they didn’t look disabled’ so that’s no solution. What are people to do?
I think we need to start by building a sense of connection with trans people as individuals and that’s what I think Vicky and Milo’s book does. I hope we can now step back from the culture wars adversarial approach.
I hope and believe things are slightly better for your friends than this. On the day the ruling was released the BBC interviewed a lawyer (herself a trans woman) who said trans people continue to have the right to use gender-dependent public facilities - as long as they are certified trans. She also said the Supreme Court ruling itself included a reminder that it did not overturn existing legislation intended to prevent discrimination against trans people.
Forgive me but more than one of my cis gendered friends has been told (not asked) to leave the Ladies because ‘you are really a man’. They weren’t men, they were female from birth but so intimidated they just left. Do think this is going to improve? Or get worse? Because they weren’t particularly butch looking at all, just not overtly feminine. I’m actually waiting for it to happen to me myself. What do I do? Should I watch how I dress? Watch how I present? Or go prepared to undress in public? Forgive me. I was unhappy before. Now I’m really upset. This impacts every woman except some who are very very gender typical.
I could only repeated what I heard, and yes I wondered exactly how things would work in real life. I'm quite aware of the major challenges that trans people face.
Forgive me repeating this. I’m cis. I expect, sooner or later, to be coerced to leave a female designated space - I’m not all that feminine. That’s all it takes.
I sincerely hope that doesn't happen to you, but I understand your concern. I don't have any answers, except that I think that Jackie's view is certainly a step in the right direction.
That could happen to me too but I think probably it won’t. If that happened to someone else and I was within earshot I hope I would stick up for the person. I do find though that people in real life are much more polite and respectful than they are online.
I have a few questions. Firstly, woman were hugely discriminated against at this time. Surely it’s quite possible that by disguising herself as a man she knew that it was a path to a freer life? Did she an truly believe she was ‘born in the wrong body?’ Also, it’s quite the stereotype of masculinity that she chose to tread. Understandable in those times but I’d hope those stereotypes of the man as the strong labourer smoking and drinking and anything else seen as effeminate are pretty much over?
Also, would anyone have described themselves as ‘trans’ back then?
I’m pleased with yesterday’s Supreme Court verdict. Im also pleased it re-emphasised the rights of those who identify as trans.
Excellent news regarding the ruling. My admiration of the women who brought this case despite all the slander, calmuny, threats of cancellation and worse, is boundless.
They have made very vulnerable people even more scared, they have made the debate more sharply divided and more angry. That’s what happened yesterday.
Found it on Amazon, pre ordered audio version...I like being read to😍
Oh cool - that sounds good
As I understand it, trans people are no longer able to use any facility which depends on sex or gender. Trans women have no right to use a Ladies, or be in a female hospital ward. Since trans men ALSO have no right to use the Gents or a male ward one assumes it applies to trans women, too, that they have no right to be in male spaces if it causes scandle. (The judgement explains the group might also choose to exclude trans men, if proportionate, for example, if “reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a male appearance”. ) One presumes that if a trans woman gives offence in a male ward (or if the hospital find protecting her expensive) she can be excluded from there too. Where is she supposed to go? Where are trans men supposed to go? I’m a cis bi sexual woman with trans friends. Today is DEVASTATING. This is not over.
I guess it is up to institutions to treat people sensitively - a private room for example rather than a ward.
That will absolutely work perfect as long as: every official and staff member dealing with the situation is sympathetic to the trans person, as long as the institution is not under pressure, as long as the correct instructions go from knowledgeable people to less skilled ones. The chances of this happening? When there is NO statutory pressure for it?
And then, what? How long until a trans gendered person decides not to seek, or to accept treatment because they can’t face the possible consequences in a care setting? Where are they supposed to pee? I mean, tomorrow? There’s no encouragement to create more gender neutral facilities. I know people harassed for using disabled facilities when they didn’t look disabled’ so that’s no solution. What are people to do?
I think we need to start by building a sense of connection with trans people as individuals and that’s what I think Vicky and Milo’s book does. I hope we can now step back from the culture wars adversarial approach.
I hope and believe things are slightly better for your friends than this. On the day the ruling was released the BBC interviewed a lawyer (herself a trans woman) who said trans people continue to have the right to use gender-dependent public facilities - as long as they are certified trans. She also said the Supreme Court ruling itself included a reminder that it did not overturn existing legislation intended to prevent discrimination against trans people.
Forgive me but more than one of my cis gendered friends has been told (not asked) to leave the Ladies because ‘you are really a man’. They weren’t men, they were female from birth but so intimidated they just left. Do think this is going to improve? Or get worse? Because they weren’t particularly butch looking at all, just not overtly feminine. I’m actually waiting for it to happen to me myself. What do I do? Should I watch how I dress? Watch how I present? Or go prepared to undress in public? Forgive me. I was unhappy before. Now I’m really upset. This impacts every woman except some who are very very gender typical.
I could only repeated what I heard, and yes I wondered exactly how things would work in real life. I'm quite aware of the major challenges that trans people face.
Forgive me repeating this. I’m cis. I expect, sooner or later, to be coerced to leave a female designated space - I’m not all that feminine. That’s all it takes.
I sincerely hope that doesn't happen to you, but I understand your concern. I don't have any answers, except that I think that Jackie's view is certainly a step in the right direction.
That could happen to me too but I think probably it won’t. If that happened to someone else and I was within earshot I hope I would stick up for the person. I do find though that people in real life are much more polite and respectful than they are online.
Would like to read this myself Jackie when is it released?
It is out tomorrow April 17 so should be in a book shop near you- sounds like a thrilling tale
I have a few questions. Firstly, woman were hugely discriminated against at this time. Surely it’s quite possible that by disguising herself as a man she knew that it was a path to a freer life? Did she an truly believe she was ‘born in the wrong body?’ Also, it’s quite the stereotype of masculinity that she chose to tread. Understandable in those times but I’d hope those stereotypes of the man as the strong labourer smoking and drinking and anything else seen as effeminate are pretty much over?
Also, would anyone have described themselves as ‘trans’ back then?
I’m pleased with yesterday’s Supreme Court verdict. Im also pleased it re-emphasised the rights of those who identify as trans.